The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

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DaveHolmes
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11867Post DaveHolmes »

Dennis196492 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:36 pmI get the enthusiasm as I had the privilege of seeing the Mark 4 come to life and felt similarly, but in 10 years there hasn't been much reason to update the reccobled cut besides what's being done now.
A public campaign to get Miramax/Paramount to rescan Arabian Knight into HD for their online streaming services seems like it would be a better use of everyone's time and resources at this point. I don't think a Criterion release of the workprint happens without Miramax/Paramount on-board. A double-disc Blu Ray with the Miramax cut and the Moment in Time workprint would be super.

This would, of course, require everyone to put aside their opinions of Arabian Knight for the good of acquiring better source material.
Dennis196492
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11868Post Dennis196492 »

It doesn't work like that, there is no pristine HD version of the film waiting in some hardware, it's all damaged film masters God knows who has the rights to. The most that happened out of it was Miramax cashing in on the minor success of the Reccobled Cut back in 2007 or 2006 with a special edition slipcover that's just the same terrible pan-scan dvd from years prior that was also on the side of a FrootLoops box.
DaveHolmes
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11869Post DaveHolmes »

Dennis196492 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:28 pm It doesn't work like that, there is no pristine HD version of the film waiting in some hardware, it's all damaged film masters God knows who has the rights to.
Arabian Knight was listed as an asset during the sale of Miramax to beIN in 2016

ViacomCBS (now Paramount Global) acquired beIN in 2020

Paramount is listed as the rights-holder on all official Arabian Knight streams available for purchase

There's absolutely a film negative of Arabian Knight in the possession of Miramax/Paramount
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Garrett Gilchrist
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11870Post Garrett Gilchrist »

I would assume there is a master film negative of Arabian Knight somewhere, probably Princess and the Cobbler as well, probably with clean credits. Paramount is currently holding the rights, apparently, which may be a step up from rights being owned by those who wanted the material suppressed. We've missed the boom era of physical media, though, and the digital release on Youtube is worse than ever.

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences (AMPAS) holds Richard Williams' workprint as a digital transfer, "A Moment In Time," as well as certain scenes on paper in pencil test form. That edit and transfer of the film has a lot of problems but would be ideal source material for a hybrid restoration. (I attended a screening of this in 2013 with Richard Williams present. Although he wouldn't have admitted it, the screening was also prompted by the minor success of the Recobbled Cut, as was the donation of a collection of artwork formerly held by Miramax to the Academy.)

Anyone on Youtube reposting Thief clips -that I restored- as their own work ... is poisoning the water supply on purpose. People like that don't deserve less blocky transfers (which don't exist anyway). It took me years of hard work, over the past 25 years, to rehabilitate the reputation of this film. If people can't find the right edit, that ruins the film all over again for them. Little Billy's "Better Uncobbeled Edition (with Thomas the Tank Engine)" on Youtube isn't helping matters. (Which would be something like, just the Recobbled Cut in 144p with the unsynced Miramax audio running under it. There are something like twelve Youtube channels like this.)

(Just in general it bothers me when people make "their" version of the Recobbled which is entirely my version with one shot changed, or something like that. I try to ignore it but it bothers me. Like, you know I spent many years on the actual Recobbled Cut, right? It didn't just happen.)

I've spent the last couple days trying to see if I can deal with some PC to Mac to PC issues that caused the material to render darker than it should have back in the day, and see what can be done with it now.

An early version of the Mark 5 is screening in Seattle in about a half hour. It's a very early version. I wasn't able to reedit the standard def master in time, so only the HD material is updated, including some material which isn't really ready for the public yet. This is the only audience who will see this particular version.

Upscaling has been a touchy subject, for both me and the audience. I may look into Real-ESRGAN upscaling. I've used Topaz to a certain extent on certain stills but it's slow and there's no upscaler that doesn't destroy some detail, especially on troubled sources like ours. Also, people doing tests tend to have problems with the color space rendering too dark. Lot of things to be careful about. So far it's been mixing different methods of upscaling and being careful in Photoshop.

https://github.com/xinntao/ESRGAN

One big problem is the quality of the widescreen source, with its greyed-out highlights and relatively low resolution. I did a simple upscale of one shot for the "Call for artists" trailer, and there were complaints about it. I agree that just upscaling the Arabian Knight widescreen source is not good enough. I ended up rebuilding the shot entirely from other sources. The cropped DVDs of the Miramax and Majestic cuts have their own picture problems, and it's tough to reconcile them with the widescreen source, but there are a few shots in this version which I rebuilt in this manner, using both a cropped source and the widescreen source, and they really do stand out as much better. It's a lot of work though, and works best on shots where the cropped version contains all the action. And would be unnecessary if we had a high quality source for the Miramax/Majestic versions.

I will be reediting the entire standard-def master pretty soon.

It has taken several days of rendering, but I've been able to get the HD (and presumably SD) scenes looking brighter without the darkening that was caused by a format change previously. In many cases a darker image is preferable so it's going to be further work experimenting, but I feel I have more control over the product now.
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GrandeurWazir
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11872Post GrandeurWazir »

Do you think you'll use this pencil test? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kE5ahof83U
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Garrett Gilchrist
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11873Post Garrett Gilchrist »

No. I don't know what that is, but if it's an alternate take on a scene which is finished in color elsewhere, the color version gets used.
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Garrett Gilchrist
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11874Post Garrett Gilchrist »

This will sound like an April Fool's Day joke, but isn't ...

In February 2022 I completed a somewhat revised version of The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut, the Mark 4-2. Notably the War Machine sequence had been restored frame by frame and given new color correction, and there were new animated shots by Dennis Van Hout.

I deleted that version off my hard drive. No one ever saw it.

I stopped work on the film, but released a "Thief and the Cobbler" coloring book (with artwork inked by myself) and a video game for the NES in the meantime.

On March 30, 2023, a cinema in Seattle screened a version of The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 5. This was not widely advertised. About 35 minutes of HD footage had been reworked, re-restored, or newly created for this screening. Some new animation was included.

This is the only audience that will see this version, as it's also being deleted while I continue to work on the project.

The delay is partly because I've decided to animate chunks of the film myself.
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Garrett Gilchrist
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11875Post Garrett Gilchrist »

For this April Fool's day, did you know that I produced a series of Nintendo NES ROM hacks that you can play, in collaboration with other artists and hackers ... that includes characters from The Thief and the Cobbler (as Super Mario Bros 2), Raggedy Ann & Andy, Bugs Bunny, Elvira, Ducktales, Inspector Gadget, Bomberman, The Simpsons, Pokemon and more ....?
https://www.romhacking.net/?page=hacks&authorid=6297
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Garrett Gilchrist
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11876Post Garrett Gilchrist »

Cropped / 4x3 / Pan & Scan Calvert Cut DVDs.

For this April Fool's Day, and since these are long out of print, here are the released DVDs of Arabian Knight (as The Thief and the Cobbler) and The Princess and the Cobbler.

Fred Calvert's botched, ruined, reedited versions of Richard Williams' unfinished animated classic, cropped to 4x3 pan & scan and put out on DVD, with lots of things wrong with the picture. That includes interlacing errors, ghosting, DVNR errors, oversaturation, undersaturation, etc.

However, there has been no HD release of this film on home video, and the widescreen versions aren't great either, so in some ways this provides a clearer, if cropped, picture. These have been a key source for rebuilding selected shots in upscaled HD for the new version .... something I may do more of, but which is time consuming.

https://archive.org/details/princess-and-the-cobbler
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BrightestDayFan2814
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Post: # 11877Post BrightestDayFan2814 »

DaveHolmes wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:00 pm
Dennis196492 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:36 pmI get the enthusiasm as I had the privilege of seeing the Mark 4 come to life and felt similarly, but in 10 years there hasn't been much reason to update the reccobled cut besides what's being done now.
A public campaign to get Miramax/Paramount to rescan Arabian Knight into HD for their online streaming services seems like it would be a better use of everyone's time and resources at this point. I don't think a Criterion release of the workprint happens without Miramax/Paramount on-board. A double-disc Blu Ray with the Miramax cut and the Moment in Time workprint would be super.

This would, of course, require everyone to put aside their opinions of Arabian Knight for the good of acquiring better source material.
DaveHolmes wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:10 pm
Dennis196492 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:28 pm It doesn't work like that, there is no pristine HD version of the film waiting in some hardware, it's all damaged film masters God knows who has the rights to.
Arabian Knight was listed as an asset during the sale of Miramax to beIN in 2016

ViacomCBS (now Paramount Global) acquired beIN in 2020

Paramount is listed as the rights-holder on all official Arabian Knight streams available for purchase

There's absolutely a film negative of Arabian Knight in the possession of Miramax/Paramount
I wish Miramax/Paramount should release the original 80 minute version of Arabian Knight (The Thief and The Cobbler: Calvert Cut), meaning it will be re-rated PG.
I do believe that there 8 minutes of footage of the master negative of The Princess and the Cobbler was still in the vault, Miramax/Paramount should put 8 minutes of footage back together, and rescan it in 4k resolution.
Last edited by BrightestDayFan2814 on Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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