Things I Say

A forum for creative people.

Re: Things I Say

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:50 pm

I've long said that annoyance with "social justice warriors" and women generally is the main way that the right radicalize the center these days. Jordan Peterson fulfills that role, using an appearance of intellectualism over a pretty extreme right core, in terms of what his values are. He does a pretty standard self-help schtick, but always manages to center the discussion in a way that prefers men over women, and prefers white/male/hetero/cis/American/wealthy/etc over all others. That's subtext. It's a slow acting poison that covers everything he says.

The dude really bothers the hell out of people on the left but not centrists -- so he's super dangerous because of that. He lives in the spaces of white privilege that Christians and the center have serious blind spots about. If you also see white/male/etc as the default you may not see his work as extreme, and fall for it somehow. And when he says really extreme things, it's in a vague way. He misrepresents the left in the same way the alt-right do, following their playbook exactly but more vaguely. People in the center see leftists getting mad about him for "no reason" and get radicalized further to the right. He's a human wedge issue.

And frustrating, when you see any of your friends go down his rabbit hole and start posting a thousand long videos by him. They may defend Peterson by linking to long interviews Peterson has had about how he's misrepresented -- where the host is also extreme right wing!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUjdL5dW0AUNuCI.jpg:orig

Jordan Peterson is asked about same sex adoption, and he responds: "I believe very firmly that the nuclear family is the smallest viable human unit: mother, father, child, and if you fragment it below that you end up paying."

Classical homophobia for his base.

https://twitter.com/zei_nabq/status/1008817930761580546

His philosophy is fundamentally regressive, based on "old fashioned" fantasies and Disney films. He finds Frozen disgusting "propaganda" because it shows a female lead who doesn't need a man.

He first got famous for refusing to use trans people's preferred pronouns and going to reporters and yelling about it. This was his job application to be someone who launders right-wing opinions and makes them seem intellectual in some way.

He's an anti-feminist.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/jordan-peterson-17972181

He knows what he's doing when he can't name a woman/feminist he admires in any way:

https://www.facebook.com/TheEconomist/v ... 179489060/

He knows what he's doing when he appears at a women's conference with extreme right leaders.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/adacf475652 ... 1_1280.jpg

Peterson has appeared with extreme righters like Stefan Molyneux, etc.

The recommended videos section, when you click on any of these, is a cesspool of alt-rightism from Peterson fans, who interpret everything he does as "destroying feminism," "destroying SJWs" etc.

https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/1 ... 68/photo/1

Peterson: "I think the idea of white privilege is absolutely reprehensible. ... The idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime, regardless of the specific innocence or guilt of the constituent elements of that group, there is absolutely nothing that's more racist than that. It's absolutely abhorrent."

He also says that maybe marriage should be compulsory and that morality cannot exist without belief in God. He'll say things which are far-righter than far-right and somehow get a pass on it because it's hard to suffer through his lengthy speeches otherwise. As if he's the Bible now because he talks a lot. The alt-right love him because he makes their hate seem intellectual and they can spin his anti-woman, anti-LGBT comments into something even worse and make a million videos about it.

https://twitter.com/zei_nabq/status/1022229036070789120

He's also there to sell the lie that universities are too far left and full of "safe spaces" and what not.

As I said myself once:

Where are these "safe spaces" you complain about? Could you locate one right now? If they're such a problem and inconvenience, could you get into your car right now and find one? Are they everywhere, or do they even exist?

If I asked you where a hamburger place is, you'd be certain that they exist and that you could find the location of one.

But why would a "safe space" be such a problem? Why is it important to you that women, LGBT and minorities not be able to gather in a place where they feel safe?

Is it very important to you that women, LGBT and minorities not feel safe, and that you be able to say the words that would make women, LGBT and minorities feel unsafe?

What words are people too sensitive to? Can you name five of them? Would you proudly say them out loud right now to a stranger? To a child?

A lot of very normal people fall for that "safe space" stuff and think the left "goes too far" somehow, so they agree with Peterson on enough points to find him interesting, even though what they're actually ingesting is intended to radicalize them into some very extreme far-right spin. That's a big part of his job now and he knows it. He's become increasingly Christian-evangelical with all that implies.

He's there to deny that white/male/hetero/cis privilege exists while cloaking himself in it. His supporters endlessly give him the benefit of the doubt because they've accepted that he is some kind of brilliant authority figure. So they just sip up the Kool-aid, when everything he says is based on a background assumption of white/male/hetero/cis supremacy. He seems reasonable if you have no eye for that (if you're a Christian centrist, white male etc). If you're on the left, he seems like the most bigoted bigot, because - wait a minute - every damn sentence is a red flag. And if he's not an imbecile he knows exactly what he's doing.

And even if you somehow accept that Peterson is brilliant and didn't say all those red-flag things he said .... his more extreme supporters are an alt-right anti-woman incel hate cult. Which SHOULD set off red flags if you're a centrist supporter of his.

A lot of people who have chats with Peterson also had chats with Twitter Gator hate group leader Milo Y, who is semi-openly a Nazi and led Twitter attacks on trans and cis women for years. Milo, like any young extreme-right leader, was funded to the tune of millions, by the Mercers, in an attempt to radicalize the young who would otherwise reject the GOP. Milo sort of plays the extreme-right idea of what a gay person is, and tried to smear gay people as pedophiles which ended his career ...

... but chatted happily with Bill Maher (who is an anti-Islamist and sucks because he normalizes these voices), Joe Rogan (who is super anti feminist), and more extreme channels.

Jordan Peterson, meanwhile, is hanging out with Rogan, Stefan Molyneux, Ben Shapiro, Charlie Kirk, Dana Loesch etc ...

So the left are freaking out about the evil people gathering in one place, while the center say "Who are those? I don't get it. Isn't Bill Maher a liberal?" etc

This is a thousand times more dangerous for a younger person, because young people will watch one Youtube video about Peterson and then get recommended more extreme alt-right videos "interpreting" Peterson from a more bigoted perspective, and then more and more extreme alt-right hate group videos, and they could easily be recruited into alt-right hate groups on social media.

Youtube recommendations are famously, famously biased toward the alt-right.

Alt-righters love this guy because he gives them an intellectual basis to be white supremacists, anti-feminism, saying white privilege doesn't exist and what about reverse racism and etc ...

Now that's cherry picking his words but not by much.

Meanwhile, Peterson's schtick is "this guy seems reasonable enough" while positioning white/male/hetero/cis/Christian/American/etc as the default, and gradually portraying everything else as aberrant or "unreasonable" when you look at the subtext even a little - a poison which seeps down eventually.

People who fall for it think that IS the default and that things politically right now aren't at a tipping point of extremes.

He won't radicalize your kid but his "fans" will.

A lot of people who actually know the social sciences have come out to say Jordan Peterson is full of shit on everything he talks about. He superimposes this old-fashioned view of the nuclear family etc over everything, and misrepresents the subjects he talks about as propaganda for a regressive view, but most people don't know enough about, say, lobsters, to recognize that he's just saying nonsense. He talks about fairy tales and legends as being ancient and innate to our culture and who we are as humans, if he can use them to support patriarchy as "normal" - but he only knows and talk about the Disney versions, which are only a few decades old. You fall for it if that's all you know, too.

When he holds up men over women using lobsters as an example, talking about putting your shoulders up like a lobster, well, lobsters don't have shoulders. And it's irrelevant nonsense but he can talk about it for ages, and that's the point. It allows your brain to fill in whatever you like and absorb his deeply regressive subtext as somehow well researched.

I'm reminded of Vivian Stanshall, who heard the Bible read in Latin as a child. When they switched to English he found that rather than finding it more understandable he now found he couldn't understand it at all. It being impenetrable mumbo jumbo had made it seem like the word of God, while hearing it plainly as the word of man made it shrivel into nothing.

It all feels very evangelical.

They just have faith in his intelligence, and anyone who tries to provide context for why his vague statements all have very extreme regressive assumptions at their core, well, that's just "building a strawman" because "the left don't know him like we do" etc etc.

That's how the right keep winning - because they set the rules of the game. They set the language, that they think has their victory built into it. They always put the left on the defensive.

It's always some sort of challenge to "prove" that Peterson is a bigot, over and over again, ten thousand times, with the rules being that no one will believe it even when you directly link to him saying bigoted things in context ten thousand times. Even though normalizing a fantasy-1950s patriarchy is his entire job and anti-trans and anti-women hate statements are the reason he's famous in the first place.

Anyone who is center / liberal can probably come up with examples of the Left going "too far," and laugh at the idea of a "social justice warrior." That's useful to the right because they'll get young people laughing, without realizing they're not laughing at or hating the same thing. The alt-right use "SJW" to mean anyone who isn't actually a Neo-Nazi! And that sliding scale can mean literally anything inbetween! So that's how you radicalize people and get them in the same conversation as Nazis with Nazi ideas. Because they think they're talking about something different -- and their friends on the left will start to shun them if they spout regressive ideas and alt-right buzzwords, and promote people who promote Nazis like Milo ... The centrist kid doesn't get why "the left are being so unreasonable" and will watch Youtube videos about how the left are supposedly unreasonable, pushing them farther to the right .... perhaps .... perhaps ....

If you Google image search for "Feminist," on the first page this woman's image comes up seven times, screengrabbed from the same video. This woman's face is the only thing a lot of young people know about feminism - rather than it being a fight for equality.

http://www.dailysquat.com/wp-content/up ... 59x412.jpg

The image title is all kinds of white nationalist / Neo Nazi fourteen word salad:

"feminism-culture-destruction-marxism-family-anti-western-culture"

(The image search results for "feminist" are terrible generally, though not always for as obvious reasons. Really shows how the extreme right have gamed the internet.)

Hey, have you noticed how everything about our news media suddenly got taken over by bad-faith right-wing nonsense the minute it became about two people "debating" and talking at and over each other, rather than about reporting facts? Turns out the winner is just whoever yells the loudest. Turns out debating naturally favors the shittiest people and ideas, whose ideas would not normally be given any sort of equal platform with the truth.

Peterson fans seem to think "He's an intellectual brain genius who just wants to have a debate! As in traditional debate, he can articulate things he doesn't necessarily believe in, and just wants to ask the hard questions about whether, say, women and men are different on a biological level which makes our society naturally the way it is!"

That might sound reasonable, unless you've ever been on Twitter, where everything a female and/or LGBT voice says is often countered by a chorus of actual Nazis (no exaggerating at all) saying "I am an intellectual brain genius who just wants to have a debate about the natural differences between white men and everyone else! DEBATE ME AND NORMALIZE MY IDEAS! PUT THEM ON AN EQUAL FOOTING!"

So it's worrying to see the mainstream normal version of that, where a worldview which is regressive at its core is still setting itself as the default here, and setting itself up to win because it sets the rules.

Peterson is not alt-right but he's not really having a debate either, he's just normalizing what he thinks, and it's a world which doesn't have a lot of time and space for people who aren't like him.

He also gives fuel to dumbasses on Twitter who can pretend they're "debating" like him and that their ideas will be taken seriously.
User avatar
Garrett Gilchrist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6212
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:23 am

Re: Things I Say

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:16 pm

(to the Power Rangers theme)
Psycho Shower Danger
Psycho Shower Danger
That Alfred Hitchcock Shower Danger
User avatar
Garrett Gilchrist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6212
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:23 am

Re: Things I Say

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:56 pm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjyrfNlUwAAV8zc.jpg

FDR's brand of Democratic Socialism gave us the prosperity of the mid 20th century. The Depression and WWII could have ruined us. Instead he made sure we had social welfare programs to fuel the prosperous suburbs of the 50s and 60s.
This was all taken for granted, and there was a backlash after civil rights advances meant that these same benefits would be available to non-whites and working women. Social programs were crippled under Reagan, and Bill Clinton ran on a platform of crippling them further.
So many people idealize the relative prosperity of the 50s-60s-70s, but would attack anyone trying to reintroduce the sort of values of equality that made that prosperity possible.
People growing up at that time took that prosperity for granted, and too many of them later fell for conservative propaganda, voting to ensure that the Millennial and Gen Z generations would never have the opportunities they had.
User avatar
Garrett Gilchrist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6212
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:23 am

Re: Things I Say

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:05 am

AGE 22: I never go to the gym, but I walk everywhere and that keeps me fit.

AGE 37: I walked for two hours to get some water from the store and will now have to be hospitalized for 24 hours
User avatar
Garrett Gilchrist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6212
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:23 am

Re: Things I Say

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:05 am

Sheep Thrills - Sia cover (by a lonely farmer)
User avatar
Garrett Gilchrist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6212
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:23 am

Re: Things I Say

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:14 pm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dmgod5YUYAAPSRo.jpg

When you look at all the racist things being done by those in charge of Trump's immigration policy, making possible "white power"/alt-right/OK hand gestures doesn't even make the top thousand, but it's still worth noting.

(In a recent interview, Kathleen Turner also noted that Trump himself does a 'gross' handshake which includes index finger rubbing - something often associated with the KKK.)

"Yuck. He has this gross handshake. He goes to shake your hand and with his index finger kind of rubs the inside of your wrist. He’s trying to do some kind of seductive intimacy move. You pull your hand away and go yuck."

I don't super care about hand gestures compared to actual racist policy, but they do this sort of thing because it's plausibly deniable. There's always a lot of dogwhistling, and the point of it is that the center miss it, but the more extreme right and left hear it very loudly. Ronald Reagan, or his staff, would apparently choose dates and locations for important speeches which had Confederate meaning (and give speeches against welfare and school diversity/busing which had racist coding). You couldn't call that out without seeming like an extremist. Trump and company do the equivalent every day.

For the Centrist, things are never as bad as they seem to be. There's a lot of policing of language - oh, you can't call them racist, you can't call them that. Right now, liberal comedian Michael Ian Black is mad at his followers because they consider voting for the Iraq War a war crime. That's a leftist position - the position that things are not okay, and weren't okay before either.

For a Centrist, the status quo has been basically okay, and you shouldn't go too far in calling these people out for what they are.

What we're dealing with, with Trump and company, is a bunch of narcissistic, psychopathic, racist bullies with no concern for anyone else. There is no level to which they won't stoop, and it's worth being on guard for that rather than thinking there are any "adults in the room" who are going to stop them if they go too far.
User avatar
Garrett Gilchrist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6212
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:23 am

Re: Things I Say

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:10 pm

So many people, especially guys over forty, just want to be treated like the boss.

They want everything they say to be treated as correct, like everyone around them is afraid to lose their jobs if they correct the boss.

A pretty typical example - I was once blocked and defriended for explaining what the frame rate of NTSC and PAL video was/is. His reaction being, "Excuse ME, I've worked in film for 30+ years, I think I KNOW what the frame rate is ..." (He didn't understand interlacing.)

(P.S. I have also worked with video for 30+ years, with a special focus on restoring/editing interlaced video from the 70s-90s.)

I'm reminded of how in previous centuries, surgeons wouldn't wash their hands before operating because "a gentleman's hands are already clean."

This really clicks in if you're younger than them. You're expected to nod as they talk about the old movie "Dracula Conquers the Martians" (he meant Plan 9 From Outer Space). Talking for two hours about a movie they half remember, and they're not sure who was in it - when you could have looked this up online at any point in the past twenty years.

There's a vast difference when talking to people they consider peers - any reaction goes relatively unchecked.

Otherwise the reaction is always, subtextually, "know your place." You're treated like you're nine, suddenly. "Act your age." "Be a big boy." "That's very inconsiderate. This is a public forum and you should be concerned that anyone reading this will never want to hire you ..."

But you didn't hire me. You're not my boss. If you want to, you can go ahead and pay me 50 thousand dollars per year and I'll never question anything you say.

Until then, you could try occasionally listening to other people, as if we're real human beings with decades of life experiences that don't match your own. Maybe you could learn something.

I also fully recognize that I have the same problem to an extent, especially when talking to someone younger. It's not an easy hump to get over. We all want to feel validated, feel like an authority. But if at a certain point you've stopped learning, it's time to check yourself.

P.S. Thinking of a recent interaction where I was the one in the obvious wrong. Talking to a well known comics veteran about it being hard to break into comics. He says, well, technically it's easier now than it was in 1966. He said, off the top of his head, only two notable names "broke in" in 1966.

Having less comics knowledge than him, I looked it up. Wikipedia can find three (Denny O'Neil, Jim Shooter, Jim Steranko). Now there may be more, but his point stands. (My reaction is something like, that doesn't mean that it's not hard to break in nowadays, and that our longtime recession doesn't make things a hell of a lot harder. I could have just let him have the point.)
User avatar
Garrett Gilchrist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6212
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:23 am

Re: Things I Say

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:31 pm

"Nearly half of federal assistance programs, like food stamps and Medicaid, now go to the middle class."

This means they're not middle class, and that there almost isn't a middle class anymore. Food benefit programs are based on income - if they were making "middle class" money rather than minimum wage or worse, they wouldn't be eligible.

It's helpful to realize that everyone is softening details and softly lying rather then admit how badly our economy is actually doing.

https://cbsn.ws/2NSvNkl
User avatar
Garrett Gilchrist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6212
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:23 am

Previous

Return to The Big Round Room

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest