The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Postby FrankRT » Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:56 am

Thank you, Mr. Gilchrist. Thanks for... everything.

I'm sorry about the fallout between you and Margaret as well.
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Postby DaveHolmes » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:21 pm

Thanks Garrett!

Margaret should have just been straight with you.

It's probably easier for Richard to present a version of his film that he entirely supervised/edited instead of something done out of his control. He'd probably still complete the film himself if he had the time/funding, and knowing someone else (you) was trying to push the issue without his blessing probably makes him resentful. Ditto for Kevin touring a documentary about his giant personal failure.

I don't think the workprint screening would have ever happened without the Recobbled Cut generating awareness of the film's history. You done good, kid.
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Postby Shamanic Shaymin » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:08 am

I want to thank you for all your hard work. If it hadn't been for the Recobbled Cut, I probably wouldn't have known about this movie at all, and just feel sad that I couldn't see "what could have been" with the Princess and the Cobbler and Arabian Knight versions. I'm going to miss you working on this project, but you've accomplished what you needed to do, which was bringing awareness to a great and important film.

I'm sorry about what happened between you and Margaret. If she had just told you, "Don't talk to Williams" rather than giving vague hints, you would have honored her advice. Have you tried explaining the situation to Alex?
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Postby feedchicken » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:14 am

My deepest gratitude to you Garret for all these years working on the film, I never would've seen it if it hadn't been for the Recobbled cut. It was nice to see you at the screening, I managed to get a chance to thank Mr. Williams after the Q&A for showing us the workprint, he didn't seem to mind talking with his fans. As have been pointed out earlier, he could've left at any point after the Q&A, instead he approached several of the people who extended their arms and engaged in brief conversation. He didn't seem to be bothered by it, I don't see how any harm was done.

As a side note, I sat on a row filled with people who had never heard of the film at all, they were just film enthusiasts, who had heard it was a first public screening of an animated film. It was great to hear their response during the film, especially to the thief gags. One of them exclaimed out loud after the film was over how incredible it was. She was an older lady in her 70s. I think the film would've been a real success had it been released as Williams had originally envisioned it.
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Postby PAW » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:22 am

I'm sorry to hear about the situation with Margaret Williams.
Thank you for posting your notes.
It's strange how many changes for the worse the audio had. Is it possible that the audio to the May 13 workprint was missing, and they found a soundtrack that was earlier than the familiar workprint and synced it up? The sound mix on the Keramidas cut sounds identical to the bootlegged workprint.

(By the way, I wonder when the familiar bootlegged workprint dates from? April 1992, perhaps?)

I've done a comparison of the bootlegged Williams workprint with the Keramidas cut, and I'm wondering whether the Keramidas cut was based on a slightly earlier version than the May 13 workprint. I've only found two cases of scenes being retimed with spacer in the Keramidas cut.
Garrett Gilchrist wrote:King Nod's angry reaction to Zigzag is shortened. "You? … Never!" In the familiar workprint it's "You want my daughter? Never!"

Was this cut, or just muted on the audio? In the Keramidas cut it is identical to the familiar workprint.
There is a previously-unseen storyboard of Tack listening at the curtain.

There is no trace of this in the Keramidas cut. Is this the same storyboard that's in the Calvert WIP? (7:36 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HzoraEx4sY) Where was it edited into the scene?
The shots of Hook shouting "A caravan is coming!" are in color as in the released versions.

Was this the shot where he runs through and knocks over the singing brigand's bone sculpture? That shot is still a pencil test in the Keramidas cut; and the rest of this scene has always been completed in the workprint.
Zigzag and One Eye: "Tomorrow, I strike!" This scene is much more finished as pencil tests than in the familiar workprint.

In the Keramidas cut this is still mostly storyboards. Was Zigzag saying "...behind these walls, when they see we have the three golden balls!" in pencil tests?
The showdown between Tack and Zigzag is being reworked, with lots of "spacer" black frames for where footage is retimed. The audio is still all over the place here. There is no "tearing" sound as Zigzag's spear tears Tack's clothing, one of many missing sound effects in this cut.

Phido eating Zigzag has some black "spacer" frames in it at the end. There are lots of these throughout but I didn't make note of them.

There are lots of black spacer frames in the ending, as Tack says "I love you."

In the Keramidas cut the editing in these three scenes is identical to the familiar workprint. (the first scene has a pencil test spliced in to replace a storyboard, but the timing is identical.)
Was the "spacer" actually black? Blank film edited into a workprint would show up as something closer to white. If it was black, that would suggest blank film edited into a negative dupe.
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Postby Dennis196492 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:14 am

Well, that was a fun ride, but like all good things they should always come to an end before they end themselves. It's a shame your cut is not technically finished, but hey, you accomplished quite a bunch with it. But as Mr. Williams said to you, ''Do your own stuff'', which I terribly reccomend you to do.
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:22 pm

I'm still releasing the Sailor and the Devil restoration when I have some time, and the Muppet work will continue, along with some other Williams-related material I'm sure.

It's strange how many changes for the worse the audio had. Is it possible that the audio to the May 13 workprint was missing, and they found a soundtrack that was earlier than the familiar workprint and synced it up? The sound mix on the Keramidas cut sounds identical to the bootlegged workprint.


No, the workprint was clearly transferred as-is. I'm surprised that it differs so much from the Keramidas cut. That's a little peculiar. But oh well.

It's difficult to be 100% sure when talking about minor editing differences based on one viewing, without this edit to hand to compare.

But regardless, let me try to clarify things.

The finished color clouds in the opening are presumably identical to those in the released versions (and Recobbled Cuts). Probably.

King Nod's angry reaction to Zigzag is shortened. "You? … Never!" In the familiar workprint it's "You want my daughter? Never!"
Was this cut, or just muted on the audio? In the Keramidas cut it is identical to the familiar workprint.


Footage was actually cut out here.


There is a previously-unseen storyboard of Tack listening at the curtain.

There is no trace of this in the Keramidas cut. Is this the same storyboard that's in the Calvert WIP? (7:36 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HzoraEx4sY) Where was it edited into the scene?


Unless I'm mistaken, I remember it as a full-body shot of Tack listening with one ear to the curtain, similar to when he was lurking around the palace previously.

The shots of Hook shouting "A caravan is coming!" are in color as in the released versions.

Was this the shot where he runs through and knocks over the singing brigand's bone sculpture? That shot is still a pencil test in the Keramidas cut; and the rest of this scene has always been completed in the workprint.


My notes say that "A caravan is coming" is in color, bone sculpture and all.

Zigzag and One Eye: "Tomorrow, I strike!" This scene is much more finished as pencil tests than in the familiar workprint.

In the Keramidas cut this is still mostly storyboards. Was Zigzag saying "...behind these walls, when they see we have the three golden balls!" in pencil tests?


That's how I remember it - that the scene was basically finished as pencil tests at this point. These pencil tests are present on Williams' video test reels and were apparently done by Dick himself, or under his close supervision.


In the Keramidas cut the editing in these three scenes is identical to the familiar workprint.


There were plenty of "spacer" moments throughout. Both black and white, as I recall, which is also true of leader moments in the KA 35mm reels. Typical spacer leader when editing film would actually be opaque and yellowish-white, which reads as black onscreen.
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Postby Garrett Gilchrist » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:11 pm

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(courtesy french-zombie)
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Re: The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut Mark 4

Postby deckardbr » Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:57 am

Hey Garret, I had to post as a long time lurker and having enjoyed your Recobbled cut.

I think the main reason that workprint screening took place is because of your work in restoring it. The fact that you did not get a personal invite to the screening was surprising to me as well as having to pay or own way to get there (through forum help). Also that Richard Williams has never contacted you out of thanks or even given you a mention when he was on stage is very surprising to me as well.

I am certain he knew of your work beforehand. I think he gave you some nice words of encouragement when you met him which was nice of him to do.

As for Margaret not wanting you to meet him, that is very strange. It strikes of hollywood ego to be honest. That a fan would not be responsible for the screening and that by meeting him you were reminding him of that? I don't know but the way she treated you was distasteful.

Thank you so much for all your work on this film. I remember showing it to a friend who had never heard of it, only knew of Roger Rabbit, and he loved it and demanded a copy immediately. Your work has brought Thief and the Cobbler more viewers then it ever would have. Richard Williams and his family should be celebrating you.
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